The bizarre problem Haas can't fix on its 2020 F1 car

Haas is stuck towards the back of the F1 grid in 2020, and now it's dropped its current drivers for next year, Romain Grosjean revealed one of the big problems that has hindered the VF-20 all season. In this video Edd Straw explains what's causing the Haas's performance to change so drastically between practice and qualifying, and why it becomes so difficult and unpredictable for Grosjean and Kevin Magnussen. And does it hint at one of the problems hurting Ferrari this year too?
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Haas's bizarre overheating problem explained
the-race.com/formula-1/haass-bizarre-overheating-suspension-problem-explained/
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Kommentteja

  • Summary: Haas car go bouncy bounce when cold.

    Joe HoughtonJoe Houghton17 tuntia sitten
  • I think the problem of the rear suspension come from the Ferrari gearbox structure. Suspension arms are attach to the gearbox and if you already have structural problem when cold, the problem become worst when the heat is up

    Sylvain ToupinSylvain Toupin2 päivää sitten
  • when you said it is the equivalent of missing half the front wing, my thought was, well Grosjean has had a lot of seat time missing half his front wing.

    toolman thetimtoolman thetim2 päivää sitten
  • I hate reading the comment section because it just shows me how absolutely moronic the average person is...

    Ro7ardRo7ard3 päivää sitten
  • It's simple. Anything "Ferrari" related this year is plain garbage. Sure, Ferrari has a couple of podiums but compared to the last 40 years, a couple of podiums doesn't cut it for Ferrari. I don't blame Haas, Gunther, or it's drivers for the problems this year. I'm curious to see what happens next year.

    Art ZilArt Zil3 päivää sitten
  • It doesn’t matter who gets the drive, they will always be the worst

    Fat JayzFat Jayz3 päivää sitten
  • Zero sympathy for the HAAS team after they dumped one of the better drivers on the Grid. Give Magnussen a competitive car and you'll see him battle top5 regularly.

    Mikkel GeorgsenMikkel Georgsen3 päivää sitten
  • Is this why Seb is spinning randomly on completely bone dry tacks?

    whiners131whiners1314 päivää sitten
  • Interesting but the sort of people that want to watch this sort of stuff dont need some fucker tickling musical instruments in the background.

    Dave BryantDave Bryant5 päivää sitten
  • The tragedy of being a B-team. If the A-team messes up you suffer as well.

    avadaavada6 päivää sitten
  • What was his excuse for being shit last year?

    Nathan JonesNathan Jones7 päivää sitten
  • This sounds like a way to get around some regulation with changing behavior cold (scrutineering) vs. hot (on track) has come back to bite them.

    GearlooseGearloose8 päivää sitten
  • Why has it taken a season not to fix ?

    David SheriffDavid Sheriff8 päivää sitten
  • So many people here desperate to not believe Vettel has lost his driving ability...

    Q ZQ Z8 päivää sitten
  • background song?

    Angus AnthonyAngus Anthony9 päivää sitten
  • Air spring? Temp change susceptibility

    David AspinallDavid Aspinall10 päivää sitten
  • Ah yes You just knew the reason why Haas isn't in the midfield.

    xtrafunniixtrafunnii10 päivää sitten
    • PS: And why Ferrari is in the midfield. Forgot to point that out.

      xtrafunniixtrafunnii10 päivää sitten
  • So, the inconsistency problem appears not to be overheating, but rather cooling down. Sounds like the area needs to be pre-heated before qualifying so it is already hot when going out on the track. Sort of like pre-heating the tires.

    john90430john9043010 päivää sitten
  • Is this the end of Grosjean and Magnussen’s career?

    Stephen MStephen M11 päivää sitten
  • man if im a ferrari junior driver im taking another year of F2 over trying to figure this thing out, plus its all new regs in 2022 - why put yourself through a year of this only to learn an entirely new type of car a year later

    Joe AcamporaJoe Acampora11 päivää sitten
  • If it's a problem shared with Ferrari it may go some way to explaining why Ferrari's performance at the cold, wet Turkish GP may have been somewhat better than we have come to expect.

    Svend PetersenSvend Petersen11 päivää sitten
  • Grosjean is such a Haas-been

    Mark MarasovićMark Marasović11 päivää sitten
  • i think that HAAS is suffering the same way that Ferrari is by no longer being able to run that special engine.

    Chris DChris D11 päivää sitten
  • dont know why haas are continuing with steiner tho. he deserves the boot

    shashank singhshashank singh11 päivää sitten
  • Use a viscosity index fixer in the suspension fluid

    michael kappelmichael kappel12 päivää sitten
  • Ferrari yet again struggling to design the back end of it's cars, not unlike the 80's and 90's.

    urabus99urabus9912 päivää sitten
  • Houston, we have a problem. Can we get some NASA or Boing air dynamics engineers assistance please?

    Jorge HernandezJorge Hernandez12 päivää sitten
  • I wish Haas was a more competitive team. My favorite driver is Hamilton but I love the idea of American teams being competitive in F1. I personally would also love to see an American driver join F1.

    Wolf GamingWolf Gaming12 päivää sitten
  • The real problem with Haas, from the very beginning, was hiring Dallara, a team which was never competitive in F1, to design and build "their" car. It would have been understandable as a temporary measure, to train their own personnel in an unknown technology and turn into a real F1 team. Since they didn't, they deserve no sympathy.

    Ernesto GasullaErnesto Gasulla12 päivää sitten
  • This happens when you outsources solution and cant repair it by yourself becasuse nobody in the team has designed it.

    cherryq91cherryq9113 päivää sitten
  • Yeah. I have a theory. Hot air is less dense, therefore, any hot air coming from the radiators & engine should be ducted away from the rear wing. Cold air = more downforce, hot air = less downforce.....and no, I'm not looking for a job,

    Grecco BucklianoGrecco Buckliano14 päivää sitten
  • They need to replace the engineers, not the drivers!

    Smitty SmittySmitty Smitty14 päivää sitten
  • Quite an interesting perspective. I have been trying to figure this out since the initial reports of an "overheating rear suspension" affecting the aero. I initially thought it had to be the dampers overheating, resulting in the ride height change, because surely it couldn't be deformation. I wasn't aware that the car could have a hydraulic intermediary between the pullrod/rocker and the actual spring/damper assembly (basically a "hydraulic link"). If that's the case, using a hydraulic system to transfer the force between the suspension pullrod/rocker and the spring/damper, then it makes sense that a temperature difference could cause problems with the ride height, especially if the hydraulic volume is small. Basically the fluid expands too much and "lengthens" the hydraulic link from pullrod/rocker to spring/damper, which changes the ride height. Am I in the ballpark?

    jsquared1013jsquared101314 päivää sitten
  • "Romain Grosjean is off the leash..." *OH BOY HERE WE GO AGAIN*

    Ivo TrauschIvo Trausch14 päivää sitten
  • What is it that’s actually getting too hot? The hydraulic fluid? The arms and linkage themselves, and when doing so expand and contract, causing geometry changes? Are there springs used? Are they metal? I’d think the springs would be carbon fiber?

    GNX157GNX15714 päivää sitten
  • Two fast drivers. Many awful cars. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Scot in SpainScot in Spain14 päivää sitten
  • I never thought Haas as a 'slow' team

    James PryceJames Pryce15 päivää sitten
  • Honestly this would be a clinical factor that could explain so many situations Haas has experienced through the years. From sudden failures of components to drivers not being able to retain their cool through the race weekend. Unpredictability in any sport is not necessarily bad. BUT constantly having to adapt to the same car wouldn't make life inside and outside the cockpit much easier. Especially if you're trying to solve a problem with the setup. Terrific eyeopener in my book!

    Dodo TennekesDodo Tennekes15 päivää sitten
  • Put Hamilton in the Sauber and see how many races he wins LOL F1 is a farce , no parity AT ALL.

    Buff BarnabyBuff Barnaby15 päivää sitten
    • In the 80's and 90's back of the pack cars were literally not only failing to qualify under the 107% rule, but failing to even PRE-qualify. The perceived disparity is at the front, because Ferrari can't use their massive "legacy" subsidy to good effect (within the regulations, at least) and because Mercedes just has excellent personnel in all the key positions and excellent team culture.

      jsquared1013jsquared101314 päivää sitten
  • Ferrari is destructive..... one more casualty.

    esphi LEEesphi LEE15 päivää sitten
  • The hydraulic cylinders probably have a different type of metal cylinder then the piston inside of it. The piston is expanding bigger than the cylinder in the heat, therefore it's sticking and binding, causing the ride height to be erratic.

    Bass MechanicBass Mechanic16 päivää sitten
    • If there is a hydraulic medium/mechanism between the pullrod and the actual spring/damper assembly, simply excess expansion of a warmed fluid could be enough to change the ride height (by changing the volume of the intermediate "connection" so to speak).

      jsquared1013jsquared101314 päivää sitten
  • the problem with the HAAS team is that the owner doesn't care about the F1 team. While I understand that F1 is basically a glorified advertisement for all team owners involved, it seems the owner of HAAS could give less a fuck about racing, or doing what needs to be done to actually win, and just cares about the attention it gives his company. Im always rooting for HAAS, being a yankee. It would be nice to see Gene give a shit enough to work through the problems, instead of threaten to end the team.

    Clayton SageClayton Sage16 päivää sitten
  • you know whos a rear rocker as well? ur mom

    rising Silencerising Silence16 päivää sitten
  • I had a 1965 FIAT 500 with the same overheating problem, adding about .2 seconds to my commute. My boss never accepted this justification for being constantly half hour late to work though.

    KastaRulesKastaRules16 päivää sitten
  • Suspension is usually close to the engine, maybe the heat is changing the viscosity of the shock fluid, could be down to the type of fluid or how the valves in the piston heads are set up.

    westbrionagewestbrionage16 päivää sitten
  • Unlikely the problem. The cars never fast? Inconsistency would mean its fast some times. Its not btw. Grosjean is the slowest on the grid hands down, consistently too.

    Studog78Studog7817 päivää sitten
  • How fascinating!

    Andrew DeckAndrew Deck17 päivää sitten
  • Grosjean is one of the worst drivers anyway, he has accident every race basically

    Manu GamesManu Games17 päivää sitten
  • Grosjean is a really great driver, sad to see his season ruined by his car constantly. It’s hard to tell with Mag because he crashes every race.

    Sean LambertSean Lambert17 päivää sitten
  • Doesn't make all that sense, he says the problem is not heating, but when it cools down after not moving. Would the problem then not be there at all during the race? Because it stays hot and at the same height?

    Schalk ZijlstraSchalk Zijlstra18 päivää sitten
  • That's just bad luck, 2 over heating issues in one team. The rear of the car And Gunther Steiner's management skills...

    phillipslyphillipsly18 päivää sitten
  • Interesting.

    xedor2003xedor200318 päivää sitten
  • It is very unprofessional to talk bad about the team you are still driving for and Grosjean and Magnussen are hardly the ones to talk, because most of their results in F1 are bad, no matter the team they drive for, and this is partly the reason why no better teams have tried to get them in their team

    fidan2fastfidan2fast18 päivää sitten
  • 0:03 - why shouldn't he be in F1 in 20:21?

    DaveMcIroyDaveMcIroy18 päivää sitten
  • So they need to build a big ass oven to park the cars in.

    TowelieTowelie18 päivää sitten
  • Instead of the blowers cooling the brakes after each session, maybe they need to put heaters in the rear blowers to blow warm air into the rear of the car between FP3 and Q1 ?

    Tim LinerudTim Linerud19 päivää sitten
  • K mag gains respect the more Gro whines like a frenchman. That aside, the complexity in F1 is off the chart!

    Som GuySom Guy19 päivää sitten
  • everytime you say the name of your channel i think youre saying "the racist"

    Jack WithersJack Withers19 päivää sitten
  • I'd try using a diversion of the hot exhaust gases to periodically heat up the suspension on a regulated controller. That way the suspension will still be hot, but at least it will be a consistent temperature. There, problem solved.

    ZPEROZPERO19 päivää sitten
  • The only reason heat would make suspension change is either 'air' spring or fluid boil. I'm a motorcycle tech and hydrualic clutches have had the issue for long enough that most returned to wire operated (Bowden cable) if it wasn't possible to re-rout away from hot engine parts. Maybe a return to low tech solution would work better than an engineers ego stipulating hydraulic actuation?

    1crazypj1crazypj19 päivää sitten
    • @1crazypj ???? jeezuss. are you a dimwit or a troll. the theory is that the problem lies in the CONTROL SYSTEM. NOT expanding components.

      David DavidsDavid Davids17 päivää sitten
    • @David Davids Yes, but, the majority of components won't have expansion high enough to matter. (a 12" aluminium bar would 'grow' by about seventy four thousandths of an inch with a 500 degree f temperature rise-almost 2mm would be significant) Titanium about half as much (I don't know expansion of Carbon fiber?) I very much doubt there are aluminium components in modern F1 suspension. Torsion bars won't matter if they expand lengthwise so it has to be something fundamentally wrong with design parameters as adding up multiple shorter components would not give a dramatic change in rear ride height. Expansion of the gearbox housing or crankcase (whereever suspension mounting points are?) could easily have more of an effect as it would be moving suspension arms further apart and changing contact angle of tyres when things get hot

      1crazypj1crazypj17 päivää sitten
    • @1crazypj ahem. have you understood what was actually said in the video. the prevailing theory is that, the Location of suspension control components in a too-hot environment is the cause of temperature-related changes, in the car's stance. cheers d

      David DavidsDavid Davids17 päivää sitten
    • @David Davids Heat is making whatever they use for suspension expand or maybe hydraulic fluid is boiling and the gas is over pressuring something? (even the 'best' fluids I know about will boil at around 600f degrees) There may well be 'better' materials for F1 but I don't have access to them They may be using torsion bar suspension with a high pressure gas 'spring' as an addition? (or an air spring with onboard compressor to 'bend' the rules? Without knowing more about the system I can only speculate I'm sure they could find a way to use carbon nanotube 'wires' plus cams to get the same effect, be lighter and without any heat issues. Big 'plus' they would also get to 'play' with incredibly expensive 'future technology' which should satisfy any engineer at Ferrari's ego. Don't forget, a lot of design engineers have made things real difficult for techs over the years just to prove 'how smart' they are (Japanese engineers in particular were real A** H***** at one time, ("you not ride our motorcycle properly", etc. ???????) They just didn't understand the US market (or most markets outside Japan)

      1crazypj1crazypj18 päivää sitten
    • this sounds like an IMPOSSIBLE problem ! hownhel can an aft temperature increase cause a change in a car's stance.???? you may have the answer, though. cheers

      David DavidsDavid Davids18 päivää sitten
  • roman has been lucky in the extreme to have his f1 career last as long as it has , he,s hardly excelled in race,s , in fact he,s been a danger to himself and others many many times

    jz35jz3519 päivää sitten
  • I like how this video is of 4:44 seconds

    Mauronicker The new updateMauronicker The new update20 päivää sitten
  • What's nice about all this? For me, the positive I can take away from this video is that Seb will for sure be back up to speed in the Aston Martin.

    BoneYardBoneYard20 päivää sitten
  • Really good video, without all the disturbing bells and whistles.

    Søren HartmannSøren Hartmann20 päivää sitten
  • I have sympathy for the drivers, not the admin. They gotta get their shit together and get that car fixed

    mark hamiltonmark hamilton20 päivää sitten
  • I say give me a couple of hundred hours of seat time in the car, and then I'll give you more of an informed opinion.

    Ed BakerEd Baker21 päivä sitten
  • Rake doesn't matter as much as anyone says it does.

    Chris EasonChris Eason21 päivä sitten
  • uhhhhh ferrari.........

    Chris EasonChris Eason21 päivä sitten
  • Haas f1 car is a turd

    Vinesh NaidooVinesh Naidoo21 päivä sitten
  • If you have a constant technical problem and there is no one in the team able to solve it, firing two experienced drivers might be a mistake. HAAS is clearly missing some good engineers

    Hauptsache PulsHauptsache Puls21 päivä sitten
  • This is what you get when you buy a car hooping it's allright. Assuming that Haas has done it's homework they knew about the problem when they bought the car from Ferrari. Allthough it could be that Ferrari themselfs didn't know about the problem back then, the had been testing the chassis during developing so the must have known.

    Robert GerritsmaRobert Gerritsma21 päivä sitten
  • Haas, the little engine that could...eventually, right?

    Hill BillyHill Billy22 päivää sitten
  • Could also explain Vettel's problem too.....give his problems with balance inconsistency, no?

    Marlon MendozaMarlon Mendoza22 päivää sitten
  • So much tech so much knowledge to be so precice about what happens but they are not able to fix it due to not knowing the source of the problem. These f1 cars are more complicated then you think

    RevolutionRevolution22 päivää sitten
  • Sure the car sucks but so does Grosjean. It doesn't matter which car he's given, he still can't go fast without crashing.

    disadadidisadadi22 päivää sitten
  • As a keyboard expert I would seriously critique the alloys used in the suspension that soften and expand under temperature.

    WatchMeWrenchWatchMeWrench22 päivää sitten
  • clever way too fuck with the Parc Ferme rules.....

    Dirk RiegerDirk Rieger22 päivää sitten
  • HASS has mega $$$. They have to get an aerodynamicist and an F1 engineer. Their idea of letting go (firing) dissenting drivers who tell the truth and are trying to help means that management needs a real "Kick in the butt'". American hubris: "It can't be my fault."

    Can NO d'EAUCan NO d'EAU23 päivää sitten
  • I guess Haas did not watch the Ford vs Ferrari movie. Moving the hydraulic lines on the F 40 was one of the first things Ken Miles did on the car.

    tonkatoytrucktonkatoytruck23 päivää sitten
  • HAAS let go of their drivers because no point of paying them when in fact whoever drives their car will struggle, I won't be surprised to see an all rookie lineup for next season.

    Yazan RawashdehYazan Rawashdeh23 päivää sitten
  • "Hass is struggling to make the ferrari package work" but " not even ferrari can understand how it works"

    Natansh KumarNatansh Kumar23 päivää sitten
  • ferrari masterplan, engineeer an issue into your parts that you can only deal with if you have a 300$ million budget, so that they're sure they won't be the slowest in the pack

    RuairiRuairi23 päivää sitten
  • Guenther has to go. He is failing miserably as the team principle.

    Nick JackNick Jack24 päivää sitten
  • Maybe haas should stick to making CNC machines lol

    TurdburglarTurdburglar24 päivää sitten
  • Ok. Ferrari has it then Hass it it too thx to the technical transfer. Who talks now about Racing Point and Mercedes now? ;-)

    Werner LehmannWerner Lehmann24 päivää sitten
  • Thanks for the memories Grosjean, but I'm ready for some fresh blood at Haas. Although not if it's Mazepin. Would have rather they paired KMag with Mick Schumacher.

    Tyler PTyler P24 päivää sitten
  • Grosjean has crashed a lot but he and Magnussen, especially Magnussen, are great drivers in terrible cars.... no different than George Russell in the Williams.... you can’t always blame the driver.... don’t believe me? Ask any second driver of Red Bull.....

    Canadian BaconCanadian Bacon24 päivää sitten
    • To be fair tho, im a huge Grosjean fan, i just love to guy. However, hes a good driver sure, but even in a merc i dont think he is championship material. MAYBE im wrong, but hes just one of those solid midfield drivers. However, you must give him huge credits for every of his podiums

      Zed´s ZoneZed´s Zone23 päivää sitten
  • Ngl haas is new so they are struggling, gotta feel bad, won't be years till they acc good

    PaulPaul24 päivää sitten
  • Simple......It's Ericson's fault.

    JavadamuttJavadamutt24 päivää sitten
  • It would be interesting to see if anyone can engineer this to passively manipulate suspension in a positive way as a result of this discovery. It could be a game changer if so. Perhaps simply changing airflow patterns around the components would be all that is required.

    Rick KinsmanRick Kinsman25 päivää sitten
  • Wow!! So Ferrari and Haas have made their drivers look useless all season just because they won't admit that the cars have a flaw. What does this do to the drivers heads and their stock value? ( rethorical question). I'm sure that Seb is quietly relieved that he'll get a more stable car to work with next year. On the flip side it also shows that Charles could be right up there if the had a good car under him.

    ChilternflyerChilternflyer25 päivää sitten
  • does the rear suspension use torsion bars as the spring in their car ? maybe as the engine is heating it is changing the torsion bar

    DomDom25 päivää sitten
  • Supporting the weight of the car at the rear can be much harder when starting the race with full fuel load.

    Gábor MiklayGábor Miklay25 päivää sitten
  • Seemingly, rethinking the rear suspension and changing its key elements to modern standards or to solve ooling could be key. But who knows, I don't see under the hood. Until then it's just moo point. 😉

    Gábor MiklayGábor Miklay25 päivää sitten
  • crap cars

    flyingchic3nflyingchic3n25 päivää sitten
  • Background music?

    Bender Bending RodriguezBender Bending Rodriguez25 päivää sitten
  • I'm rooting for Haas (among others), because they have such a revolutionary approach to F1, but still they've only had one good season. Didn't they have other weird technical issues in other seasons as well? Why can't they solve it? I do hope they get on top of it, because I want them to go well

    Human spectrumHuman spectrum25 päivää sitten
  • If it was the suspension getting hot and changing due to the heat, wouldn't they do better in the races? Or does it get worse in the race because they don't stop the car and shut it off for several minutes at a time?

    Slw Snowman40Slw Snowman4025 päivää sitten
  • I don't understand what motivates teams that fill up the numbers in formula 1. If I did I might feel sorry for Haas. Surely its time to pack it in in, but they're probably bound contractually to plod on.

    Mark DonenMark Donen26 päivää sitten
  • Such a great video, but audio mix was made by a guy that is deaf in the high frequencies. Just can't watch for 30 seconds, every time I hear an "S" is so disturbing in my ears! Please fix that!

    Fred WynykFred Wynyk26 päivää sitten